Zionism Forums - Zionist and Israel discussion

[scopus]

Gershon Baskin has given his views of True Zionism, posted at
http://www.zionism-israel.com/true_zionism.htm

I think that dissemination of views such as these can go a long way toward erasing the monstrous image of Zionists that has been created by cartoons of Ariel Sharon eating babies as well as selective interviews by BBC with articulate outspoken and extremist settlers, who pretend to represent all of Zionism and all of Orthodox Zionist Jewry.

However, this article is bound to create some controversy. Please tell us what you think.
Shalom,
Ami

[Lou]

Gershon
Wow I love your sense of consciousness; while bullets are flying and plans are in progress for the destruction of your country. I admire your ability to focus on Jewish values while you, your family and your country are in danger.
A less conscious person might focus on protecting yourself while educating those who support and fund your enemies; please share with me how you are able to do it. I certainly don't feel as evolved as you appear to be.

[aussiechick]

Gershon, I believe your heart is in the right place, but before making the assumptions you speak about, please take the time to spend a night or two in Gush Kativ or one of the other places you call settlements. Get to know the people, who really live there, and then speak again.

I would be happy to go back to pre 1967 borders when and only when the Jews in Gaza can live as freely as the Arabs within Israel, and feel as safe. Not only is this not even entertained by most Jews let alone the world, it is not expected, and I would love to know why. Why can't Jews live in Arab controlled lands in peace ??? Why is this such an absurd notion to so many people ?

You speak as though moving out of Gaza and the West Bank will bring peace, when you know it will not. You sound like a reasonable and intelligent person, so I know that with the pull out you do not think that peace will come. Even the government is removing Jewish cemetaries because they know from previous experience that these will be desacrated if left behind.

Nobody is talking about moving non Jews out of anywhere, that is the problem since it was not done after 67 - so why do so now ?

Does you wonderful Jewish heart have no sympathy for families who have not only lived for 30 years in the same place, but turned it into a wonderful place to live and created a productive industry that brings economic benefit into all of Israel ? Is your heart not moved by any of the stories of families who live there already being moved from Sinai and Europe ? Could you imagine 9,000 or even 900 people told to leave San Diego because this needed to be given back to Mexico - or for any reason, moving even 90 people out of their homes in the United States.

What is wrong with giving Gaza all back to the Arabs with the only expectation being that they allow the Jews currently living there to remain there in peace as a gesture of goodwill ??????????????????

Yes emotions are running high, but living in Israel, you of all people must know that Israelis, and even religious Israelis, definitely want peace.

How do you know that the Arabs do ? What have they done, not said, but actually done, to let you know this ? Israeli hospitals tend to their sick, do their hospitals or even ambulances take care of Israelis ? Ever ? I know Israeli Universities have Arabs in their classes, are there any Israelis in any Arab institutes of learing ??????? I know Israelis arrange camps and activities for kids to come together, are any initiatives like this initiated by any Palestinians - organizations like Seeds for Peace, come from the U.S. WHAT HAVE THE ARABS DONE, not SAID that leads you to believe they want peace ???????? And yet I still would let them have the land that they want, but if nothing else, promise me that you will leave the small area currently inhanited by Jews alone ! Is that so much to ask ??????

[gill222]

Gershon writes:
Their ideology says "Jews don't expel Jews," implying that Jews may expel non-Jews

I strongly disagree with this. I think you'll find that all through history Jews have been expelled by others, and that they find it hard to accept that they are this time being expelled by fellow Jews.

Gershon writes:
Zionism was not about conflict with neighbours

There's an old saying
" If Palestinians laid down their weapons - there would be Peace - If Israel laid down her weapons - there would be no Israel" I don't think anyone could disagree with this, but you seem to place the blame for the conflict squarely on Israel's shoulders.

Gershon writes:
I want to be a free people in my nation living in peace with my neighbours both within and along our borders

Isn't that what every decent Jew has always wanted? Ask yourself- who started all the wars? It certainly wasn't Israel.

You blame extremist Right Wing Jews quite rightly for a lot of ills, however you have omitted the left-wing crazies who courted Arafat and have joined Arab extremist groups. Was this deliberate? They are both as dangerous as each other to Israel and all the Jewish world.

My definition of (extreme) Left Wing: People who care too much about other people, to the detriment of their own well being.

My definition of (extreme) Right Wing - People who care too much about themselves to the detriment of other's well-being.

Gershon - it's perhaps time to start caring about your own people - if you don't, who will?

[Ratna]

Hi Aussiechick,
I think it not very accurate to describe all settlers as such peace-loving people that didn't do any wrongs to the Palestinians, and are only a victim of their violence. I have read too often reports of settlers throwing stones at Palestinian children and preventing them from going to school, settlers who said all Palestinians should be expelled by force from their 'Holy Land', settlers that destroy olive trees and prevent Palestinians from working their land etc. etc., and not only in anti-Zionist papers. How can you put such a blind eye to that? I am not saying that all settlers are like that, but these are not just 'one-man actions'. How many settlers view the Palestinians as equals with an equal right to the land and to live there in peace? How many settlers did condemn thursday's attack by a Jewish terrorist as unequivocally as they condemn Palestinian terrorism?

I think the people who moved to the Gazastrip after 1967 new that Israel would probably give up the strip somewhere in the future. They are compensated generously. I agree that it is unfair that no Jews can live in areas under Palestinian rule, but I think both sides are to be blamed for that.

Ratna
http://www.zionismontheweb.org/blogs/

[Oboler]

[amukhtar]

Gershon,
When I started my day today I did not anticipate myself doing this. I hope I'm taking a step in the right direction, and your very informative piece of writing explaining to me, as a Muslim Arab, for the first time what Zionism is about has successfully changed my perception of Zionism for the better. I’m telling you that you’ve made a positive contribution.
As a Muslim, I truly believe that the planet, the universe belongs to God. This is your God, my God and the God of the Christians. We are all cousins and we should live together peacefully. We should debate about the most important thing in life, our purpose as creations, but none of us has the right, ever, to deny the existence of the other and to claim supremacy over the other. If I was born a Jew, chances are I would have remained a Jew. If was born a Catholic, chance are, I would have remained a Catholic. I was born to Muslims, I'm a Muslim, people are generally shaped by their immediate environment and that should always be taken into consideration whenever attempting to communicate through, but in making the break through it is important to maintain the message that we are equal, but we are seeing things coloured by our respective cultures. I have many Jewish and Christian friends, whom I love and I hope love me back, yet in my peaceful practise of Islam they see a more peaceful coexistence rather than a confrontational statement of self righteousness.
There seems to be many parallels between true Zionism, as I understood from you, and Islam, the reason that makes me believe that there is a chance for peace. Jews and Muslims have lived in the past side by side, and as Isaac and Ishmael are half brothers, I can’t see how they could have existed otherwise anyway. Israelis need to put down their weapons and Arabs need to stop attacking them or the Arabs need to stop attacking the Israelis and the latter need to lay down their weapons and both need to start respecting each other. I hope what I’m doing here is a step in that direction. Gershon, you need to continue persevering in better explaining Zionism to the rest, as until very recently, I was under the impression that Zionism implied that it is acceptable for Jews to take possession of anything that is not owned by a Jew until the entire planet is left only for the Jews. I understand that Jews like Muslim must spread Judaism, but whilst respecting people’s right of choice, and respecting people’s possessions and status if those people choose not to become Jews.
The only time a Muslim country has the right, under Islam, to raise arms against another country in the name of Islam is when the latter is actively preventing some of it’s subjects from practising their religions. Which means that it is very utopian from an Islamic point to co-exist with a Jewish nation, so long as that Jewish nation does not oppress it’s Muslim subjects, and vice versa, the Muslim state does not suppress it’s Jewish population. I’m trying to say that it is possible to live in a world where different states exercise different beliefs whilst respecting other beliefs without being at a state of war. That should be our ultimate goal, if that is what Zionism is really about, then I have no problem with it in principle.

[Dvar Dea]

Your gesture of peace is most welcomed.
Israel is committed to the freedom of religion and culture of all its citizens and residents. As Herzl had said, “no minority living among us shell suffer intolerance, religious or national”
That is my commitment to you amukhtar, to myself, to Herzl and to Zionism.